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Re: Subject: Re: balloon torrids???

Subject:  Re: Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
  Date:   Thu, 22 May 1997 16:39:52 -0400 (EDT)
  From:   Wes A Brzozowski <wesb-at-blue.spectra-dot-net>
    To:   Tesla List <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>




On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tesla List wrote:

> Subject:   Re: Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
>   Date:    Wed, 21 May 1997 02:15:41 -0400 (EDT)
>   From:    SSNSanders-at-aol-dot-com
>     To:    tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
> 
> 
> In a message dated 97-05-21 01:18:37 EDT, you write:
> 
> << From the very nature of this list, we're all used to
>  performing hazardous operations, and no one's going to cower in fear
>  when
>  a little common sense and a safe set-up will allow us to do what needs
>  to
>  be done. If we outline the hazards and the problems, they can apply the
>  common sense and safe procedure, and everyone can have fun.
>  
>  Wes B. >>
> I wrote the original post on a laboratory setup to produce hydrogen gas.

Yes, you did, and since you left out some information I felt some
readers
might find important to their safety or well being, my reply included 
but was not limited to, responses to those omissions.

> Your
> response and critique is to a post on the same subject by gary weaver

You're half right. My "response and critique" also covered omissions in
the other gentleman's posting. 

> concerning drano and the like which I did not respond to any furthur. If
> you
> will read my original post you will see the cautions, the cooling, the
> use of
> a large vessel,the reaction  type , the heat, the attachment of a baloon
> away

I most certainly did read your original posting, but felt that further
cautions would be prudent. I still do, and would do so again. If you
will
read my original post, you'll see such cautions. The procedure you
posted
is a useful one, and I'm sure that many people on the list will
appreciate
it. I have used it for many many years when a small amount of hydrogen
was
needed. But since this reaction and the exact setup used can cause so
many
different kinds of unpleasant surprises, and because hydrogen is just so
d*&m explosive mixed with air, I felt it very important to add furter
cautions. Don't take it personally; it's an addendum to a fine posting
(and another individual's more careless follow-up) that was slightly
flawed by less than complete safety information. 

I suspect that even the
safety information I provided could also be improved upon, and I invite
others to expand further. While the hazards are quite manageable when 
they're understood, those hazards need particular emphasis, especially
since the procedure was outlined in a list where experience in chemistry
procedure is likely to lag far behind the average experience in
electrical 
procedure. I'd further ask that list members considering trying this 
procedure try it first on a very small scale; say, a teaspoon of lye in
a
gallon milk jug, with lots of water added. Scale it up gradually; there
are surprises in store when you increase the quantities in many chemical
reactions. One of the surprises in scaling up is the so-called
square-cube
law. That is, the volume, and so the amount of heat produced could
increase (in the worst case) with the cube of the dimensions of the
reaction vessel, whereas the vessel's surface area, which is related to
its ability to get rid of excess heat, only goes up roughly according to
the square of the dimensions. This means that as you scale up, things
get
hotter faster, and have a greater tendency to get out of control.
Please,
gang, scale up gradually here!!!! 

> from the reaction and after cooling, ETC... Observe the headers of who
> the
> post is comming from please. The statements you speak of and the post
> you
> attached are NOT the same.

Ah, but they were. I found it convenient to respond to two postings in
one
response. The single and double quote marks at the left margin of the 
message made it quite clear (at least to me!) that I was responding to
two
people. 

I've kinda done it again in this reply; I've both responded to your
reply
and added further safety infrmation that I think could save an
experimenter's eyes, ears or hands. 

I really do apologise if you felt I was attributing the second, sloppier 
post to you. I've responded to multiple posters in one reply in many 
newsgroups/newsletters over the past several years, and have never had a
complaint about it. If you feel strongly about such a practice, let me
know (by e-mail) and I'll make sure never to reply to you in a note, if
I'm also replying to another.

Back to the rest of the list out there: before playing with a large
quantity of hydrogen, start with a  bag containing, say, 2 liters of air
(make sure the reaction vessel is filled with water; no extra air space)
and add perhaps a liter of hydrogen. With a little spark gap in the bag,
ignite the gas electrically, from 10 feet away. After you see what such
a
small amount can do, you'll be better prepared to decide wether you want 
to experiment with larger amounts, and start figuring out how to
minimize
the damage, should an accident occur.

Have fun & be careful...

Wes B.