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Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
Hi PBT,
There is a lot of misinformation and "theories" on force produced by asymmetric capacitors. For instance one misconception is air thrust causes lifting force. Actually, any air thrust is 2-3 orders of magnitude less than lifting force. Some thrusters have no open center and there is no interior thrust produced by air. Successful lifters by definition must overcome the force of gravity. This gravity complication can be totally eliminated and the system simplified with horizontal asymmetric thrusters. On one, I mounted two small triangular lifters vertically on the horizontal arms with circular thrust horizontally. Also, I have mounted two "solid" NASA type asymmetric thrusters on the ends of the horizontal.bar. NASA holds the patent and also has a video somewhere.
See: http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/act/html/2dacap.htm This is a good example of a horizontal asymmetric thruster. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the JLN's lifter theory though.
Some folks deny lifters can be powered with HVAC. Just shows how much confusion and false theory surrounds lifters. All I can say is do the experiments.
Ir's been some time since I did the experiments. I used a variac over driven 16kv 30 ma NST with the output of approx 20-21 kv AC. I used ~ 10-20 NF HV poly cap(s) capable of with standing the HVAC. On some experiments I used MWO diodes for rectification. Best to experiment with different values as all systems are different. I fashioned simple upper and lower needle bearings, so there was minimal mechanical resistance. I remember after spinning up the rotor I could reduce HVAC to less than 10kv and maintain speed. On one thruster, I turned it down to around 6 kv. This eliminated a lot of corona which is a good thing. Corona and Electrostatic force probably are not responsible for thruster mechanism. And, air thrust is not the mechanism either.
If you build a horizontal circular thruster, I find it best to not glue the PVC fittings and pipes. Just hand tighten them. Much easier to assemble/dissemble and modify them and they are plenty stable.
So, the field is wide open still. I hope you find the correct mechanism.
Stork
----- Original Message -----
From: mrapol@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: Tesla Coil Mailing List <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 02:10:53 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I am actually trying to build a
horizontal "thruster" rather than the usual foil-and-wire lifter.
Stork: what sort of cap should I use across the NST outlets? I have seen a
reference to using a 1 nF ceramic doorknob type. Any recommendations?
PBT
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List"
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
> Hi PBT,
>
> I have made several rotary lifters powered by NSTs. Place a HV cap across
> the NST HV outlets. A NST by its self won't work. You can also add a HV
> diode(s) that rectify the output of the NST for experiments. Personally, I
> feel pulsating current gives better performance. Amazingly + or -
> pulsating DC makes the rotor turn in the same direction of rotation, but
> the speed changes with different polarities. I demonstrated all this at R.
> Hull's Teslathon years ago.
>
> Filtered/regulated HVDC is not necessary for lifters. I think that HVDC
> corona leaks off the lifter and creates small rapid voltage pulses. So,
> it's not really pure HVDC at the lifter electrodes. I also believe there
> is a role for pulsating current in the lifter. Perhaps more important than
> pulsating HVDC. Maybe the HV cap is responsible for current pulsation.
>
> Anyway, the interest in lifters seems to have waned considerably without
> the true mechanism defined. I hope you find it.
>
> Stork
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Terren"
> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List"
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 7:07:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
>
> Hi PBT
> None of these will work as none are pure filtered stabilised DC at a
> current
> of perhaps 100uA.
> You should do what almost everyone else does and use a TV monitor with the
> HV wire brought outside. The voltage is borderline at 25kV but should be
> OK.
> The 100kv supply is an AC induction coil with the pulse mostly in one
> direction. It is not true DC and being pulsed will only provide lift for a
> small part of the cycle.
> Rectification probably won't help much. Same with ignition coils.
> van der Graaff's and static machines aren't stabilised and will struggle
> to
> get the current.
> NST's are AC and might work with a dual voltage doubler arrangement to get
> 30kv DC and series resistor to prevent burning up with flashovers.
>
> Cheers
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mrapol@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 11:53 PM
> To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
> Subject: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
>
> Hello,
>
> I am working on a high voltage "lifter," and I have some questions about
> powering it. I checked the list archives and found some info, but nothing
> that addresses my particular questions. Any clarification would be
> appreciated.
>
> Most of the how-to stuff I have read supposes you're building a power
> supply
> from scratch, adapting a flyback, etc. I have a variety of HV sources:
>
> --a 100 kV DC variable power supply, made by Hamilton Drills of Canada.
> (These are commonly sold on eBay. They appear to be solid state induction
> coils, rectified to give DC output? The maker insists they are DC,
> although
> he does call them "Tesla" coils too . . . )
>
> --various NSTs in voltages of 7.5kV, 12kV, and 15kV, at 30 and 60 mA
>
> --an OBIT (10kV, 23 mA)
>
> --auto ignition coils driven by household dimmer switches
>
> --a Van der Graaff generator
>
> --a hand cranked Wimshurst machine
>
> My question is, nowhere have I found what would be needed to hook up an
> existing power supply to the lifter. From what I read I assume the
> Hamilton
> Drills unit is the most suitable, but simply connecting the lifter to the
> output posts does not seem to work. An email to the Hamilton Drills maker
> yielded a reply that I need to connect two 75kV, 5mA diodes (?) in series
> to
> the unit's output--presumably the + terminal?
>>From what I read on the list archives, it is possible to use AC sources
>>like
> NSTs? My big question, having power supplies and having made a lifter,
> what
> is the best way to hook them up?
>
> PBT
>
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