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Re: Cyclotron effect



Original poster: "Terry Fritz" <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>

Hi Paul,

That is what I was thinking too!  I didn't mention this because I wanted to
see what others would come up with independently.  So two people have come
up with the same idea now, and 'one' of use is really smart ;-))

While peering through fields books I noted the following spiraling electron
notes:

http://hot-streamer-dot-com/temp/Espiral.jpg

http://hot-streamer-dot-com/temp/Espiral1.jpg

Of course, there are great questions:

The B field would have to be in the direction of the streamer.  Could the
spiral streamer (much like a solenoid) make it's own B-field in that
direction and then follow it?

If so, how could such a system form and then stay stable?

In this picture, note the area right at the fork to the right.
http://hot-streamer-dot-com/temp/p213e.jpg
Could the streamer be pushed in one direction by the other branch of the
fork, and then return to the expected rotation with sufficient distance not
to be affected anymore?

For the AC currents.  I "think" the spiral streamer will turn clockwise in
the positive half cycle.  In the negative half of the cycle the current
direction reverses and so does the B-field so the direction of rotation is
still maintained in the clockwise. 

It is interesting that in the high power streamer shown, the effect is not
seen in the beginning where the current is high but 'displacement*' current
is low due to the proximity of the giant sphere.  Further out, the current
density seems to reach a sweat zone were the forward and displacement
current (which may be a true conductive current in this case*) seem to
conspire to form the effect.  At the end of the streamer, the effect
disappears at a current density is more like our typical streamers.

Lots of questions and the answers are not obvious.  Hard to make
qualitative judgements without knowing the quantities involved and if they
are even near the levels needed so support such strange things...

It is hard to tell the direction of twist from the photos.  Perhaps someone
who can see them directly can tell us if they are in the same direction as
the threads on a drywall screw or not?  Are they 'always' in the same
direction?

*I was thinking the magnetic field caused by true displacement currents
could be shown by these helical sparks.  However, at these voltages, the
currents or probably mostly conductive currents spraying charge into space.

Cheers,

	Terry


At 11:28 PM 3/12/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>If a beam of charged particles was launched upwards from the center
>of the toroid, they would continue straight up, unaffected by
>the B field (since beam v x B is zero).
>
>But at any angle from the vertical they would form themselves into
>a spiral (ish) path since v x B is now generally non-zero. If they
>emerged horizontally from the toroid, they would curve either
>upwards or downwards depending on the sign of their charge and the
>B field polarity (assuming here that E is roughly radial from the
>topload).
>
>Could this cyclotron mechanism also affect the path over which a
>streamer forms?  Do the electrons in the leaders see a sufficient
>v x B force to make a noticeable difference to their path?
>
>Can this account for the observed spiral discharges?
>
>Assuming electrons are the sole candidates for being affected (due
>to their lightness and relative mobility compared to the ionised
>atoms) we should see the spirals form in opposite directions on
>alternate half cycles, due to reversal of B.
>
>Do the observed spirals appear to rotate both ways?
>
>For an order of magnitude we can easily put forward a value for B,
>but does anyone have a guess for v?
>
>If the spiral streamers tend to be entirely or mostly in one
>direction does that direction reverse if you replace the secondary
>with an identical one wound in the opposite direction?
>
>If the toroid is connected to another smaller toroid, displaced some
>way to the side of the coil, such that the streamers relocate to it,
>do they retain the spiral effect?
>
>A couple of experiments there to add to the ever expanding list.
>
>Is it worth computing the trajectory of a charged particle leaving
>the toroid?  We know E and B for the region, but what about v? 
>
>And has anyone used one of those little NIB magnets as a breakout
>point?  Wrapped in foil perhaps?
>--
>Paul Nicholson
>--
>